Rev. Josh Scott, author of “Bible Stories for Grown Ups” explores with us the paradoxical possibilities of the Bible’s ancient narratives. We dive deep into the serious question of faith: “What do we make of the seeming contradictions and inconsistencies in the Bible?” Josh helps us see how asking these tough, discomforting questions can become catalysts for spiritual growth.
Josh Scott (he/him) has been a pastor for the last two decades. The focus of his work is reimagining, reframing, and reclaiming faith. For the past severak years, Josh has served as lead pastor at Gracepointe Church in Nashville, Tennessee. Gracepointe is leading the theological development and practice of Progressive Christianity. Josh is also the author of “Bible Stories for Grown Ups”.
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Episode Notes
Josh's book is "Bible Stories for Grown Ups"
Visit Josh's church and see 40-something year old Josh preach (still looking for videos of 16-year old Josh!)
In this episode:
(00:00) Welcome to Compass: the Divine in the everyday
(02:53) Bible interpretation revelation during college religion class.
(08:28) Thinking Bible, notes, resources, observations, sharing.
(11:45) Bible contains contradictions but fosters meaningful conversations.
(18:42) Bible’s errors don’t discredit its importance.
(21:20) Favorite sections: gospels, Paul’s genuine letters
(27:11) Mark: The earliest and shortest gospel, full of movement. Ends with an empty tomb and a rumor.
(34:00) New book in April, contextualizing scripture stories.
(35:23) Gratitude for growth in sermons over time.
Related episodes
- Fresh look at radical Jesus with Damon Garcia
- From heroes to villains with Diana Butler Bass
- Communicating and bias with Brian McLaren
- When we question if we want to be Christian with Brian McLaren
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- Email our hosts Ryan Dunn and Michelle Maldonado about future topics and feedback.
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This episode posted on September 6, 2023
Episode Transcript:
Ryan Dunn:
Hi. Welcome back
Ryan Dunn:
to the Compass podcast where we glimpse the divine that's, taking place within the everyday. My name is Ryan Dunn.
Michelle Maldonado:
and I'm Michelle Maldonado.
Ryan Dunn:
In this episode, we're starting an ongoing series that kinda cover the tough questions that we often hear about faith, starting with one question that has really kinda led many a shipwreck of faith, is does the viable contradict itself. So this episode, Michelle and I are talking with Reverend Josh Scott about this topic and really on a large scale. We're talking about how we can take the Bible seriously while we navigate some of the special or skeptical quest that we might have about this sacred test. Michelle, let's look out to you about this conversation which
Michelle Maldonado:
But we covered a lot of topics in that conversation, but one that did stick out to me is, when we were talking to him about the contradictions in the Bible, a question came up. Well, if there's so many contradictions, do we take the entire Bible as true or not. And that was just a very interesting take to hear, his answer. And if you wanna hear that answer, you better listen.
Ryan Dunn:
Right on. Yeah. Well, Josh has been a pastor for the last 2 decades. The focus of his work is reimagining, reframing and reclaiming faith. For the past few years, Josh has served as lead pastor at Gracepoint Church in Nashville, Tennessee, which sets familiar to us. Grace Pointe is leading the theological development and practice of progressing Christianity. And Josh has recently authored probably not a surprise. It's called Bible stories for grown ups, and it's really kind of what attracted us to posing this question to him. If you find you here in this episode helpful to you. I'll then do Michelle and I favor and leave us a rating and review on your podcast with some chat. Yes. Amen. It comes in. It helps other people discover that becomes podcast, and, it actually helps us soon connect with other people who might be destined to answer these tough questions. So let's get to that tough question. Shall we, Michelle? Let's do that. Let's do that. Let's talk bible, flannel graphs, and faith with reverend Josh Scott. Josh, you've written a book Bible Stories for grown ups, it's based on an expanding understanding of scripture, one that isn't, like, completely moored into kind of the traditional Sunday school themes that we may have been fed on the flannel graph, as you pointed out, when we were kids, was there kind of a particular moment or a specific moment when you came across a Bible story and you realized that this story is not really what I thought it was about?
Josh Scott:
Oh, so many probably. there is So I was actually doing a little writing on this earlier today. you know, I was I've been reading the Bible. Actually, it was memorizing the Bible before I could read. So I've I've been around the Bible a very long time. I've been familiar with the Bible a very long time. This is my twenties, though. I mean, I started preaching when I was sixteen 17, but often say it was in my early, very early twenties when I started taking the Bible seriously. Well, somebody else has interpreted it for me. and this is what it means or this is what it seems to mean on the surface. So this is what it means. And probably one of the the things that did that for me was my freshman year of college. So, you know, 18 or so, I I did something I was told not to do And I took a religion course. It was a course on the Hebrew Bible, at public university. And, the teacher was just brilliant. And I'll never forget when she was we were going through the Jonah story, where in my upbringing, there have been 2 really important things about story. One is it literally happened. a guy who was swallowed by fish spent 3 days, 3 nights in that fish. It's really important that it happened. And number 2, it's sort of just if you run from god on anything god has told you to do, something bad's gonna happen to you. You may not be swallowed by fish. to make it a flat tire. You may you know, there there some things could happen that are so great. And as we put that story within its context and realize this is a way bigger story than just about obeying god. This is a story about loving our enemies and what happens if we don't learn to live, differently among our enemies? They were in big trouble, which is just a different story. Right? It's a scene that's calling us to, reflection. It's a story that's calling us difficult work. And so I think for me, that story realizing that the the thing we've been doing the entire time is just trying to defend the story. And the whole time, the story has just kind of been going over our heads. and, the the real challenge of the story has been missed. So I have a, I have a very, very clear memory of sitting in that class, sitting on one of those desks, and just feeling like my my brain was exploding. I mean, then for people who were raised, you know, who were raised differently, who were raised to take the Bible seriously, in that way their whole life that they, like, probably thinking, yeah, of course, that's what's going on there. Like, why are you late to the party? was late to the party because nobody ever told me that I that I could read the Bible that way. and that was a big moment for me.
Ryan Dunn:
Why do you think you'd been told not to take that class?
Josh Scott:
because it's a slippery slope is, you know, like, once you start, reading other things besides the Bible about the Bible, you know, what what professors wanna do is ruin your faith. Right? They wanna they're out to get you and they're out to they're out to get Jesus. And so you know, we were I was told that it would cause me to to my faith to change, and they were a 1000% correct. into their credit. Now, I didn't realize at the time how great of a thing that would be, how having my understanding and my preconceived ideas and all of that sort of exploded, was actually a gift to me. I just I didn't realize it. I didn't realize it on the front end. but hindsight being what it is, it really was.
Ryan Dunn:
Did you feel like it was threatening to your faith in a way?
Josh Scott:
Well, that's what I was told. The problem was when when I started learning about, you know, literary criticism or textual criticism or when I started engaging with that stuff, the stuff that was supposed to feel scary and threatening, it just made me more excited about the Bible. And so I I just kind of decided, like, this actually makes me like the Bible more. I can't imagine that's a problem. you know, what I often say is I did the one thing I was told to do my my life, which is I read the Bible, and then I ended up seeing the Bible very differently, because I read seeing Jesus differently because I read the Bible. and then the same folks who told me to read it were mad that I read it. which is just an interesting situation to live in.
Michelle Maldonado:
That's really funny that you mentioned that because I remember when I was in college, I went to a a united method of school. We were always told, like, I know religion is required for graduation, but if you're don't take it. It's it you're not gonna be a Christian afterwards, and I was just like, now I really wanna take that class. so I totally know what you mean, and plenty enough to, the people that ended up taking that class are now pastors, which is very interesting. Very interesting. So I I did wanna ask. So, when you're reading the Bible, what's your ritual, let's say? do you always have, a biblical dictionary? Are you cross checking different translations? what's that process?
Josh Scott:
Yeah. I I wish I could say that I'm able to just come to the Bible and open it and read it without any further thought my brain just won't let me do that anymore. when I read the Bible now, I'm I even if I'm trying to just I'm just gonna read it for enjoyment, and I do. I read the Bible for enjoyment I'm a wild and crazy person. Right? I'm, just love it.
Ryan Dunn:
It's a special kind of breed. Yeah.
Josh Scott:
that even, you know, I noticed things. I have a friend. My friend, Joe, says that she thinks in Bible, and I I've very much resonate with that. so even if I don't have a Bible in my lap or pulled up on my phone, often if I'm driving or I'm sitting alone for a minute or whatever. Their scripture went through my brain. so, you know, it's something I do a lot. I I tend to what I tend to do when I'm reading the Bible is instead of having all these resources out at one time, what I tend to do is I just try to make notes about what pops up, what I found interesting, what I found confusing, what detail that I had had had noticed in the text this time through that I hadn't noticed before, and which is one of the great things about literature. The Bible's great literature is that you can read it a million times. And it seems like every time, every pass through, you pick up on something because you're a different person or you're in a different situation or -- Mhmm. -- like, whatever. A lot is some some contextual shift has happened for you. and you're now reading this and you're like, oh my gosh, I never noticed before, this connection or that this is a wink and a nudge back to part of the Bible before. And, so for me, that's just, sort of, turning off the edit button and just making notes of things that I found interesting. And then, because there's a difference too in just doing that, and then preparing for a sermon. Right? Like, when you're preparing for a sermon, all the resources are out and you're running things down. But sometimes I'll just make notes and then, the next time around, I'll pull out a couple resources and go back through the text again. And and of course, you know, I'm something I come up with my go up on my sub stack. It might become a sermon. It might become a book. Or it could just be an interesting thing I share with people at parties. If there's a role in the conversation and then, you know, they need to spice it up a little bit. I'll tell you what did you know in the book of
Ryan Dunn:
And then so, yeah. And then everybody's like, oh, it's time to go. Like, that's too much. Just brought out the Bible stuff. It's been a nice night, everybody. Good night.
Josh Scott:
The final nerd to the party.
Ryan Dunn:
I had a pastor tell me once. He's like, you ever want people not to talk to you on the airplane? pull out your Bible.
Josh Scott:
That made me an interesting, and maybe I should consider that because one of the things that often happens on airplanes is people ask, what do you do for a living? And then you're stuck like, do I tell them and completely suck all the air out of the airplane, or do I not?
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah. They do that mental check. Like, have I sworn yet?
Josh Scott:
It's suddenly they become the most devout human being. We're good. Let's just the human.
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah. I'm just a person who wants to relate like you do. Uh-uh. Well, our money question for this particular episode centers around the Bible. And really it's this idea that, it's kind of all or nothing with the Bible. Have you found in reading it that there are points in which the Bible does contradict itself? And if so, Like, what do you do with those contradictions?
Josh Scott:
I was speaking at a church in Atlanta this past summer. and somebody during the question, response time, somebody asked the question, like, what do you say to somebody who says the Bible has no deconstruction? and I said my and I mean this totally respectfully. My my my response to them would be go try reading it. just give it a once over. and what you'll discover is that, unless you just are willing to do some mental gymnastics, the Bible has issues. It has it has things that say one thing and then saying things that say another, just a few examples. I mean, if you were to ask the question, and I love asking this question because people, they know the answer, and they also know that that must not be the answer, or I wouldn't be asking the question. you know, who killed Goliath? Right? Did you ask that question? Everybody knows that right answer to that question is King David. until you get to the end of, like, 2nd Samuel, and there's the exploits of David's mighty men. And, one of the mighty men is credited with having killed Goliath but the folks who the the the NIV is so uncomfortable with this. The NIV is so uncomfortable with this that it puts the phrase brother of in the sentence with Goliath. So this guy killed the brother of Goliath, which I think it says he did in one of the in one it says that in chronicles, I think. Right? which may be an edit on on 2nd Samuel, right, chronicles comes along and then says, hey. We need to do that. But in the IV and and Hebrew. It's not brother of in 2nd Samuel. It's this guy killed Goliath. well, who did it? Was did David get credit for something he didn't do? or is this guy getting credit? Is there a a mess up? Either way, they're not saying the same the same thing. If you go read Wisdom Literature Right? You go read proverbs. It's pretty straightforward. If you're a good person, you do good things, good things will happen to you. And then Joad slides into the chat. And and Job says, actually, tried it. Went horribly. Did all the right things. it didn't go well. And then there are just some little details like, you know, how did how did Judith die? When did when did Jesus send because at the end of Luke, it's on Easter night, but then it acts written by the same person. it's 40 days later. There, there are just things that pop up within the Bible that don't agree and can't be reconciled. Now we can call them contradictions. I have no problem with that. But what if we thought about it? Instead of contradiction, what if we actually named what I think it's doing, and that's conversation often? you know, especially between proverbs and Job. Right? did the Bible, and we we finally ended up with this is the scripture. They were content to leave proverbs and Job in there. intention. they were content to leave Esrani Amaya, which calls for you know, every Jewish man who's married to a foreign wife and has children with his foreign wife to send them away. In the book of Ruth, which asserts that the greatest Jewish king David was born out of a union that at one point was with a Mobite woman who is the Israel's hated enemy. Those all exist together in the Bible. You have 4 gospels which agree on lots of things, but don't agree on others and sometimes change details from one to the other. You can tell like Matthew borrowed Mark, But then, you know, Matthew changes the Cyro Phoenician woman to a canaanite woman, and there's a theological reason he does it. And so I don't think the Bible has contradictions in the sense that, well, now these things, we, we found we finally found 2 passages that don't agree so the Bible's useless. Well, only if you think the that an ancient document compiled over 1000 years -- Mhmm. -- should agree on everything. when if we had been instructed well into the nature of the Jewish tradition, the Jewish tradition is not interested in agreeing on everything It's interested in the argument and the discussion and and going back over it again and again and again. And so does the Bible have contradictions? I have no problem with the word if that's somebody wants to call it. I think conversations gets really down into what's happening. This is a a a dialogue over time created by our spiritual ancestors who are trying to sort out meaningful things about god, about themselves, about, of course, there's gonna be, push and pull and disagreement and disjointedness between all of that. I would actually be shocked if there wasn't.
Michelle Maldonado:
Especially taking into account that the context where they are geographically, their culture, yeah, immigration, refugee themes. Yeah. There's so much there.
Josh Scott:
Yeah. And even though, you know, generally, the Bible is centered around a particular group of people living in a particular place, even the the context that the writers were experiencing over time changes.
Michelle Maldonado:
Mhmm.
Josh Scott:
Right? you go from the era of David where you're nation building and you're eventually you're going to just trying to survive the Assyrians and the Babylonians and the the Romans. And so it's just the idea that the Bible is just this monavocal speaks with one voice cut from whole cloth that just sort of in my you could have told me this is a kid, and I would have believed you. Fell out of the sky. Leather bound, gilded edges. King James saying. Good enough for you. Yeah. It's good enough for Jesus, and it's good enough for Paul. It's good enough for us. Right? Like and that's just not how the Bible came to us. I think people are generally stunned to know that even the canon of what we call the Jewish scriptures, Hebrew scriptures wasn't complete. until around the year 100. Right? That's when the the writing section was really kind of finalized. And what that means is Jesus died before the the Hebrew scriptures were fully what they are today. Now he he was aware of Psalms, so you quote Psalms rather. But as far as understanding, like, we have a cannon, that would have not necessarily been something he would have even understood. So, yeah, I mean, this this idea that the Bible sort of fell out of the sky, I think No, that's not to say that people aren't being inspired. They aren't having experiences that lead them to tell these stories, but they're very much coming from the ground up. They're coming from human experience of the divine of other humans asking the big questions that we're all asking about what it means to be alive in the world. be in relationship with god and each other and how do we live good lives and and leave contributions that make the world a better place? All that's happening in the bible.
Michelle Maldonado:
So following that same trade of thought, let's unpack, this statement the Bible is all true or none of it is true.
Josh Scott:
I grew up hearing that statement. Probably preached it in my late teens early twenties. And now I just think how in the world do we believe that? and the, you know, it's either all true or none of it's true. Either the the earth was literally created in 6 days or and this is the argument I heard, or Jesus never even existed. Like, that's a stretch. That's a really So I would say, one of my, one of my favorite scholars Marcus Ford used to say something like, you know, the Bible's true, and some of it actually happened. which I think is helpful. Right? Like, to understand, we're dealing with different sorts of things in the Bible. And this is not what what they what we call history is not what they call history. we're we're looking for the unbiased, unfiltered, unvarnished, by the way, does it that's not a human capacity? Nobody has the ability to just tell it unvarnished completely up their own experience and lens. But just this idea that if the Bible has any sort of error in it, if it has any sort of contradiction, if it has any sort of that we should just get rid of it. I I would just say I love the Bible I take the Bible really seriously, which means I can't take that argument seriously. Right? Because that just ignores what the Bible has been for people for 1000 years now. it ignores what it's been for me. And it sort of is built on some assumptions about the Bible that are a product of the enlightenment, that aren't a product of the years that the scriptures were passed down from generations. Like, that's a relatively this approach to the Bible, the whole idea of inerrancy and fallibility, all of that. in the way we've understood it in a modern world is a product, a response to the enlightenment, not something grounded in actual experience that people would have been having these debates and discussions around this particular issue. you know, when some of our some of the early Christian fathers talk about the idea of So they they're talking about it in the same way as we are since the was it the Chicago statement? I think it's what the name of the statement is on an errancy. But, yeah, it is I think I'm I think it's a statement that misunderstands the very nature of what scripture is or could be.
Ryan Dunn:
Mhmm. So Are there, are there parts of the Bible that, Well, the parts that make you uncomfortable, are you prone to kinda leave them aside, or do you give equal weight? Like, for example, I forgot if you said this or if you wrote this, but Hebrews is not your favorite book. So do you have to spend time personally in Hebrews or?
Josh Scott:
I would say my least favorite section is are the past oil epistles. because the, you know, these, in my understanding, these, first, second Timothy and Titus. There are some beautiful lines in them, but they are often the ones that are quoted to say, at least in my upbringing, evangelism. Well, women can't lead or preach in church because here it says, And so, you know, these documents, in my understanding, and were written later written in Paul's name to sort of gain some of his authority, but reflect the time later in church history, you know, maybe in the 2nd century, late 1st century, early 2nd century. And they're really written to sort of soften some of the edges of what the Jesus movement was. I don't spend a lot of time in the pastoral epistles. I spend most, you know, I I love the gospels. Mark is my favorite gospel. I have such a crush on the gospel of Mark, and I love it. Paul's genuine letters, I find meaningful, very meaningful, love love the Hebrew scriptures There's just a few and few few sections. Now do I read all do I read every prophet? give the same attention. Do I read Amos and Obedaya and the exact same attentiveness. I don't. I think we all end up finding their parts that resonate more with us and that and there's also, like, the parts that I think capture what I think the spirit is up to in ways that maybe here's another example. We call it contradiction. You have in, you know, Isaiah where it says beat your swords into plowshare. And then you have in the book of Jolt, beat your plowshares into swords. and you kinda just wanna go, like, you just I just imagine this person who reads Isaiah and they start doing it and they get it done. And then they go to Jolt and they're like, you've gotta be kidding. Oh, great. You know, I've gotta go back. I have to undo it. and instead of seeing that as like, well, which one, you know, which one is, right or which one? The question I would ask you is which one seems to be in line with the movement of spirit. So I I don't assume every single word of scripture reflects the the heart and intention of the divine. because we have human beings who are riding through their own lenses and their own experiences and in their own context and lots of things happen when we do that. So I don't think god has ever commanded us to beat our, swords into, or to beat our plowshares into swords, but I think that there's the so the the tradition puts forth a, which one which way are you going to go? you know, you're gonna it's sort of like Jesus teaching. You're gonna build your house on the the sand or you're gonna build your house on the rock or you scripture continually gives us options for how we're going to show up and be in the world, and you can prove text your way into lots of different things. But the point for me is not the proof text because, again, you can find a random Bible verse to suit anything, but it's the overwhelming arch the arc. Where where is this going? What what kind of human are we going to become if we follow this to its natural end? And, you know, I just in my own reading of the Bible and my own experience of engaging with other people who read the Bible is that this, you know, I believe the spirit is leading us toward towards and depo chairs, towards human flourishing, towards compassion, and kindness, and love, and justice. And so the parts of the Bible that push me and pull me and invite me into that are the parts I try to spend most of my energy with.
Ryan Dunn:
And define proof texting for us.
Josh Scott:
Yeah. So, what I'll tell you how we did it when I was in, college, and I was serving on a summer mission team at a youth camp. Every morning, we would get up and we would go to breakfast before the campers got up. And we had this really in the hot in the the vestibule, I guess, is what you would call it, building, there was this massive Bible, family Bible. Huge. And every morning, we would take turns doing what we call dropping it. which means you would walk over. You would close your eyes. You would randomly open the Bible. You would put your finger on a text, and that was the verse of the day. now that's an extreme. We we found some really interesting parts of the Bible that way, by the way. No, that's an extreme of, you know, just randomly taking out, a a text and and just applying it and quoting it at people. to try to prove your point. Okay. Which and this is actually what my next book is about. my next book is called context putting scripture in its place. working on it right now. And one of the chapters I just worked on is a chapter where Jesus says the line, the poor you always have with you. And I've often heard that scripture used, to say, you know, it really Christians really shouldn't be concerned about ending poverty. because if we were to end poverty, we would be going against this thing Jesus said and would make Jesus wrong because we're always supposed to have the poor with us. or, you know, there are countless ways people just randomly take a verse and say, see, you're clearly wrong because this one random verse that I didn't know existed, but I googled because I was looking for something to win the argument says this when we haven't even considered Okay. Listen. Let's ask what book is it in, first of all, when was that book written? What was going on when that was book written? And what part of the book is it from? I mean, there's just so many questions to get to being able to actually, I think, in some sort of informed, helpful way interpret a passage. Whereas proof texting is just like, you know, here's a here's a random verse that kind of proves my point as long as we don't think about it too hard. so let's use that.
Ryan Dunn:
Michelle, I've got a a couple more just, like, random questions of curiosity. I don't wanna, like, hog all the time, though. You gotta go for it. Okay. Well, first, share the passion with us, Josh, why is Mark so special to you?
Josh Scott:
Oh, for so many reasons. Well, I because it was first, is one of the reasons I love it. You know? Mark seems to have been written around the year 70. Very tumultuous time. Matthew came later. Matthew uses over 90% of Mark. Luke came after Matthew. Luke uses 67% of Mark. But so Mark was the now, there could have been other gospels that existed before Mark that were meaningful that we just don't have. But of what we have, Mark is the earliest it's the shortest. It is full of, movement. Right? I mean, Mark is trying Mark is getting Jesus to Jerusalem. Mark is is trying to explain the Jesus narrative in the context of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish temple. I mean, Mark is a gospel written right at the end of the world, at least the end of the world for those folks living in judea in the 1st century who had their lives completely offended. Mark's writing at the end of the world. he introduces us to all the characters that we've come to, you know, know and love or love depending on who they are and how we feel about them. and, also, I love the way Mark ends. Mark ends with no appearance of the risen Christ. Just an empty tomb and a rumor. that if you go back to Galilee where it all started, he'll meet you there. and the women walk away from the tomb, saying nothing to no one because they're terrified, and that's the original, it seems the original ending of mark. Now, other endings have been added on about drinking poison and handling carpets. but those are additional endings because I think what happens is scribes end up reading Mark and they go, that's unbelievably dissatisfied. I, so they add some endings. I find it very satisfying ending because it's actually where we are. it's the experience we get to have. Right? We, we, we, we get the rumor of an empty tomb, the rumor of a risen Christ, but ultimately it's an invitation for us to either come to some sort of faith experience of that or not. you know, the other gospels are you have Jesus being like he's He's around. They're touching him. He's eating fish. It's a it's this whole big thing. But in Mark, it's sort of this you're left. It's almost like those do you remember those pictures you used to have they're at to try to see if, like, your eyes would do something. A picture of her. Yeah. I'd never -- Never. -- in my life got this work. But it's almost like Mark is giving us this story at the end. Right? This is, this empty tomb narrative with no appearance of Jesus, his way of saying stare at this. You go back over the entire story I've told you. Tell me who you think this person was and what you think's happening. And it's an invitation for us to really engage and, it's it's serious. So I just And I love so much of Mark's features, but Mark does this thing called the it's it's actually got a technical name, like, in circulation, but I prefer to call it the Markin sandwich, where nine times in the gospel. It's this convention he uses where Mark starts a story adds another story in between and then finishes the story. And the story it's like ABA, and the story in between actually serves to interpret the story on the outside. Brilliant. Brilliant. So I I just love the conventions he uses. I love the the last thing I'll see. You got me talking about it, and now I'm just gonna go on and on and on and off. Yep. My my really another thing I love is the the steam and mark of failed discipleship. The disciples just keep failing. And even when they get it right, 2 seconds later, they fail. and it's just terribly comforting to me to see that that, you know, and I I think there has to be you know, there has to be some sort of, like, the idea that all of them abandoned Jesus said it's her best. To me, there has to be a historical kernel of truth fair. Otherwise, why in the world if you're marked, do you try to completely run down the care these people who are the leaders of the movement, who the generation who just passed, yes, but if that's not a well known fact that the disciples often during Jesus Ministry, failed to get what he was doing. And when when the chips were down, they bailed that if that didn't happen, some version that didn't happen, I don't know why you include it. And yet, you know, Jesus keeps having confidence in them and keeps inviting them to keep going, and it's just such an encouraging thing to me because I don't get it a lot. And sometimes I mess up, and it's just nice to to see, like, oh, yes. The people we would consider, the founders and heroes of the movement are people who are very much like us.
Ryan Dunn:
around inspiring. I hadn't thought about that. The, the original ending being in that state in which we kind of exist ourselves and Well done, pastor. Alright. So you've also mentioned Marcus Borg. Are there other resources that you tend to lean into that have helped kind of your unpacking of the Bible a bit?
Josh Scott:
Yeah. you know, another one would be John Dominic Crossing. Brian McLaren has been such a gift to me. Pete Denz, Rob Bell, Then there's, you know, some new writers, as a writer named, Damien Garcia who has a book called The God Who Rights, which is just fantastic. And I recommend
Ryan Dunn:
Episode
Josh Scott:
96
Ryan Dunn:
or something like that. Sorry.
Josh Scott:
Yeah. I mean, I just I'm I think his work is so good, and, and he's sort of, that book is just incredible. I recommend it to to everybody. Yeah. you know, what I love is, I I love being able to engage with scholarship and then to try to make that scholarship accessible to my community, to people that I'm writing for because really good scholarship has been done for a very long time. I just wasn't aware of it until I was in my twenties because nobody told me about it. And so it seemed like this, woah, what is what is up? where has all this been hidden? This is all brand new stuff and some of it's new ish, but a lot of it's been around for a long time. We just, I just hadn't been given access to it.
Ryan Dunn:
Well, You've mentioned, you're working on a bit of a follow-up book. Can we expect more kind of, new, fresh looks at at old biblical stories through that?
Josh Scott:
At least at least new to to some of us. Right? Like, I
Ryan Dunn:
mean, for those of us who grew up with the flannel grafts, yes, it's new. Yeah.
Josh Scott:
This will be new. Yeah. Yeah. and so in the new book, context putting scripture in its place, it'll release in April. what I'm do what I do is I'm taking the 6 text slash stories I'm using in this, book are first Corinthians 13, which is, often most read at weddings. which, I don't think Paul is actually writing wedding liturgy, not that it's not cool to use it. use it weddings for people all the time. the book of Ruth, particularly Ruth 1 18 where she says, where you go, I will go. Your people will be my people. My god will be your god. What is that actually go to doing in context? Cause it's not between 2 people who are getting married to another is between a daughter-in-law and a mother-in-law. So what is that actually? What is going on in that text? Mark 14 where Jesus says the poor you always have with you, Jeremiah 2911. I know the plans I have for you. Mhmm. Philippians 4th Flippings for where Paul writes, I can do all things through Christ. It gives me strength.
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah.
Josh Scott:
And then the final one is, the story of Sonangamora. which is so often taken out of context and and weaponized against folks.
Ryan Dunn:
Yeah. Well, we can see, thirty something year old [email protected]. But where can we find videos of sixteen year old Josh Scott reaching?
Josh Scott:
Well, first of all, I'm grateful you said 30 something because I'm actually forty something. Second, those have all been destroyed. there are no videos. you know, I don't Yeah. I don't of course, when I started preaching, there was cassette tape. so I'm sure that my parents some old cassettes -- Mhmm. -- of of 16, 17, 18 year old me, knowing everything, and not being afraid to tell people that I know everything. you know, what it is so strange to think back on, in 25, 26 years in ministry. Just looking back on how what I would say would change about a text, what how I would approach it. and just feeling an overwhelming amount of gratitude for so many people who listened to really bad sermons so that my community now can listen to not as bad sermons. and and just to see the growth over time and how, you know, some of the sermons I gave in the early days about the stories that are in my book would have been the flannel graph version. and so there's a part of you that's grateful that that stuff's not just floating around out there. part of it is apologetic for anybody who had to sit and listen to it. and then there's there's another part that's, again, grateful because of what I've learned how I've grown over that time.
Ryan Dunn:
Well, thanks for offering your your time and your perspective to us today.
Michelle Maldonado:
And -- Thank you.
Ryan Dunn:
Hey. Thanks for take in this spiritual and enlightening intelligence forming, maybe journey with us on the compass pod cast. If you, appreciated this episode, I think you're also gonna get a lot out of episode 109 from heroes to villains with in a Butler Bass. And, of course, I gotta mention the, people who Josh mentioned that we've previously had on the Compass podcast one of those people is Damon Garcia. We talked with him in episode 89 about his book. The guy who riots in taking a fresh look at Radical Jesus. Josh mentioned Brian McLaren too, who's been on the Compass podcast a couple of times. Most recently, in January of 20 21, but we also talked with him in October of
Josh Scott:
2020.
Ryan Dunn:
hey, episodes come out. Every other Wednesday. And, thanks for listening, Michelle. What am I forgetting to throw in here?
Michelle Maldonado:
There is something missing, and I can't think of it.
Ryan Dunn:
Well, we give thanks to United Methodist Communications who pre is the Compass podcast, and we'll talk to you again in a couple of weeks. We're looking forward to answering more questions of faith, people of faith. so We'll be revisiting this series again soon. In the meantime, peace.
Michelle Maldonado:
See you then.
