Discover how a “holy nudge” led Jordan Cramer on a journey from self-doubt to self-discovery while earning his Master of Divinity degree. The cradle United Methodist’s story of commitment and faith reveals God’s transformative power available to all of us.
Guest: Jordan Cramer
Cramer is the ministry coordinator at City Point United Methodist Church.
Learn more about Iliff School of Theology, where Cramer received his Master of Divinity degree.
Reading comics is one way that Cramer keeps his spirt in shape. Check out BlackMarket.la for some of his favorite comic series.
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This episode posted on June 7, 2024.
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Transcript
Prologue
Discover how a holy nudge led Jordan Cramer on a journey from self-doubt to self-discovery while earning his master of divinity degree. The cradle United Methodist's story of commitment and faith reveals God's transformative power available to all of us.
Crystal Caviness, host: Jordan, welcome to “Get Your Spirit in Shape.”
Jordan Cramer, guest: Hey Crystal, glad to be here and so super excited to be on podcast today.
Crystal: I'm excited too and I can't wait for us to dive into the conversation. But before we do that, can you tell us just a little bit about yourself?
Jordan: Yeah, absolutely. So my name's Jordan Cramer. I use he/him pronouns and I like to tell people that I'm a cradle Methodist. My mom's dad, my grandfather, was a Methodist preacher in the Arkansas Conference right when The United Methodist Church was formed, for about 10 years. And so that's how I became into the Methodist Church and I've never left, so I'm super stoked about that. I'm a Navy brat. My parents actually met in the Navy and we moved around a ton before we finally settled in Fort Worth, Texas, which is where I still live today. And I'm a spouse, a father. I've been married for 10 years. I have two beautiful girls. Their birthdays were just this past month, one is seven and four. And I love music. I love playing music and listening to music. In fact, I connect a lot to the world, Christianity to the world around me through music. It definitely is one of my things that helps me calm down and be in a place whether excited or a place of calm or just help me be wherever I am. So anyway, yeah, that's a little bit about me. I'm sure we'll have more to talk about soon. I don't want to share all the things just yet.
Crystal: That's right. We're going to talk about what you're doing, what you're going to be doing. We are recording this when you are, I believe, three days away from graduating with your Master's of Divinity from I left School of Theology. Is that correct?
Jordan: Yes! Yes ma'am.
Crystal: So you are a seminarian.
Jordan: For only a few days
Crystal: For a few more days and then you're on the ordination track to be an elder in The United Methodist Church.
Jordan: Yes.
Crystal: And I admitted this before we started recording the podcast and I'll admit it to everyone that we have not met prior until today, but I did some stalking on the Facebook and I did see your beautiful daughters and your beautiful family and I didn't know how old the girls were, but it looks like that about the time you were entering seminary, you had some little babies at home. You had some small children.
Jordan: Yes.
Crystal: And that interests me because that's a time in life where a lot of people are like, my hands are full, I can't do anything else. And yet you made a different decision. I want to talk about that for just a minute.
Jordan: Yeah, absolutely. So our first child, our oldest child, Leah, surprisingly enough, when I went back to finish my undergrad, my bachelor's, it took me two years and she was born in the first year of that two years. And so when she was born, I was working at a church as a worship leader. I was going to school and I was a stay at home dad. So I did all of that for about a year and then I finished my undergrad and then I started in the fall of 2020 at Iliff. Our youngest daughter was born May of 2020. And if for our listeners and for you, if you remember what happened that year, a global pandemic happened. And so I was working in a new church now at this point and the church was kind enough to give me paternity leave and I super appreciated that because that me to have six weeks of just family time getting to know our new baby girl and build that connection and we were at home. So we spent a lot of time together and then I started seminary on top of full-time work. It was a mental battle because seminary rocked my world and broke me down theologically, but didn't just leave me there. They built me back up, right? There were a lot of things about seminary that opened my eyes to the world, to God, to theology, to life surround me, me and having kids in the midst of that and the global pandemic was really interesting. It was really interesting to be in seminary during a major pandemic.
Crystal: Jordan, maybe back up just a little bit. What kind of conversations did you and God have that got you to those decisions?
Jordan: Yeah, great question. So this is actually part of my call to ministry. Growing up, I listened to the negativity about who I am. A lot of people told me I was unintelligent and not good enough and then eventually believed them. And so I considered myself a really average student. And when it came time to go to college, I was very wary about it. I didn't think I was good enough. I didn't think I was smart enough and I didn't want to go get a four year degree. And it took a long time to get to that point. It took me six years to get a two year associate's degree. It took me 12 years to get what they call a four year degree, but eventually did and through the grace of God, through the power of the Holy Spirit through people, I recognize that I am worthy, I am enough and felt this deep call to ministry.
So then fast forward to September of 2019, I actually met one of the promoters of ILF at the Institute of Leadership at Church of the Resurrection. His name is Daniel and we had a one-on-one session and he told me all about Iliff and I felt it. I knew God was calling me to Iliff specifically to go to seminary and I did a tour of the school and the rest, as they say is history. Now all of that was decided by I was accepted and all of that by January of 2020. At the time we didn't know the global pandemic was going to happen, and so I fully anticipated doing a lot more in-person stuff, but it was fully online for two years. In fact, I didn't physically meet any of my classmates until my second year and that was such an experience. I am not joking when I tell you that almost every person that I met in person, we cried because we had a lot of experiences solely online, which thank God for Zoom and technology to be able to meet virtually. But as you know, and you've talked about in podcast previous episodes, we as humans, we need community. And I'd even argue that we need that physical community of people being physically around us. And so it was such an emotional experience too when we finally all got to meet together for the first time that God was there and we were so happy to see each other in person.
Crystal: Thank you for sharing that and sharing all of that. You're just being so transparent about, I mean I might use the word wrestle, maybe you won't use that word, but kind of you're wrestling with God to get to this place of entering seminary. And I'm not a minister. I feel like I say that a lot on this podcast because I don't want to give anybody any reason to think that. I am certainly not clergy at all. But seminary seems, it does seem intimidating and this part about breaking apart what you believed and then reassembling it into something that I would guess looks different.
Jordan: Yes.
Crystal: So that sounds really scary. I kind of want to hang onto what I believe and I want to hang onto it pretty tightly. So that seems like a scary process. Can you share a little bit about that and what that was like and maybe something that changed for you?
Jordan: So I would agree with you on using the word wrestling. There was a lot of wrestling and a lot of tears and a lot of arguing, arguing actually, because I remember telling myself, I am just not good enough if I love church. I've been working in ministry since 2006, so 18ish years, but never once did I think I could be clergy. I didn't think I would be good enough to be someone's pastor. I wasn't smart enough. I wrestled with that for so long and God, excuse me, if I tear up, this is really emotional for me, but God knows me and knows my heart and knows the unique gifts that I have to offer and knows that I can do it. And it took me a long time, what I will say, if I can say it took a couple handing me a check to continue my ministerial education to become a pastor.
They felt God telling them to give me money basically to go do ministry. And I was floored. I couldn't believe it. And I tried to, I know you're not supposed to do this, but I tried to deny it. I not accept the money. I was being kind of rude, but my spouse, Sharon was standing next to me and gave me the metaphorical elbow and we accepted. And I remember a couple of days later just coming home, breaking down in tears and I finally said, God, I'll do this, but I cannot do this by myself. I'm going to need every ounce of help that I can get because I don't trust myself right now and I need your help. And so that helped me think about going to seminary and then when I was at Leadership Institute and walked by that table, I felt the holy nudge, if you will, and I knew right away that it was Iliff.
Even though I live in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, I could have gone to Perkins, which is right down the road. I wanted to be in a sense obedient to that call to go to Iliff and I will never apologize for that because that was one of the greatest experiences of my life other than meeting my spouse and getting married and my children going to seminary has been a blessing. Breaking down those beliefs like you mentioned, getting to that question was tough, but I believe I've always had an open mind about things. I've always been rather inclusive in whatever that means to you. So to be open to God being something else or being open to the world, being something else, I was okay with me, especially because I wasn't doing it alone. Not only was God there, but I had a cohort of folks that I could just toss questions out to argue with debate, agree with, help me understand what is this theologian trying to say? What is Jesus trying to say? What does the world need? I wasn't alone. What helped me I think overall get through to this point of graduation, which is just in a few days, is knowing that God has called me and I found peace in that I found peace in my calling and I know now what I need to do in this life. I know where my trust is and leaning into that gives me peace to be able to continue to do this work of ministry in the United Methodist context.
Crystal: I love that. And you said that God showed you that you have gifts that can offer the church. What are some of those gifts that you feel like God revealed to you?
Jordan: I'm 36 years old. I consider myself a millennial and a good one at that. I really feel like I have a gift of connecting with people. I don't like to come into a conversation or a room. I always try to keep an open mind. I have this T-shirt that says “I love Jesus, but I cuss a little,” because it's true. I'm human, but I also love Jesus very much and I try to show people that by being inviting and welcoming to folks, try not to be judgmental with other folks. And I have noticed that my generation, the millennial generation and Gen Z, there's a lot of judgment coming to us. A lot of people have been hurt and burned by the church and also what they see on the news about the church is not accurate. I want people to know the way that I know Jesus, the Jesus of the love of children, the love of men and women and people of all race, of all gender, and I want people to know that.
And so I'm doing my best to tell people about that in my way of a millennial nerdy hip, if I can say that hip kind of person and meeting people where I like to go. I'm a comic book nerd. I love all things comics and pop culture. In fact, for our listeners, while you can't see I'm wearing a pop culture button up, it's got Ninja Turtles all over it. Behind me are pop figures of Aquaman. I love Batman. And so that is a place for me to connect with folks who, if you know anything about the nerds of the world, I'm using air quotes here. You know that we get rejected a lot. There's a lot of judgment. We're not cool, but we're also learning that it's not cool to judge people. And so when I find my tribe so to speak, I clinging onto them while also trying to show them the world's not as bad as you think it is, and we can like comic books and we can like pop culture stuff and Jesus too. They're not mutually exclusive and I just want people to know stuff like that. So that's how I feel like I can connect with folks.
Crystal: I love this message of, well, of course of not judging, but also this self-worth message that I hear really underline a lot of what you're doing is helping people. I think I'm hearing correctly, God helped you understand your own self-worth your own value and that that's a part of what you want other people. You want to let other people understand how God can show them their value too.
Jordan: Yeah, absolutely. I know I'm not the only one who has said something akin to this, but if God can do this, I call it a miracle. Literally. If God can do this kind of miracle with me, then the potential is limitless with anybody. God works miracles through people and not just the staff that parted the Red Sea or bringing people back from the dead. We see these big or Jonah coming out of the whale, right? I would consider that a miracle. If you get eaten by a big fish, you'd probably die. But we see and hear these big miracles and I have wondered where's my miracle moment going to happen? It's happening right now, but it's happening in the everyday world, and if I can go from maybe self-loathing and introspective of I'm not good enough to, I am more than good enough, I'm worthy and God loves me regardless of what I think about me, that right there, the alders gate experience so to speak, is enough for me to know that I can go out there and do what God has done for me. If I can get a master's degree when I thought 12, 15 years ago I couldn't even get an associate's degree, then there's more to be done and there's lots to do and God can do anything, especially through people.
Crystal: When I was stalking you Jordan, I did learn that you do love Jesus, but you also love The United Methodist Church.
Jordan: I do.
Crystal: And I would call you a Method-nerd, which is someone who geeks out on all things Methodist, and we had a little bit of a conversation before the podcast started and you kind of confirmed. Tell me what you love most about being United Methodist and why you're choosing this denomination for your career.
Jordan: Yeah, so like I said, I'm a cradle Methodist, been in the United Methodist Church literally since birth. I was baptized not too long after birth in The United Methodist Church, St. Mark's, I believe in California in San Diego. And so it's what I know. That does come with a caveat. For a short time I did explore and when I was exploring, I was wondering is the United Methodist Church for me? And after about a year or two worth of exploration, I discovered yes, The United Methodist Church is for me.
Now why I think is also what you're asking, why is it because for multiple reasons, it's rooted in connectional. I love people, I love connecting with people. Anytime I can get a bunch of Methodists together, I'm going to do it because it's all about connecting or it's not all about, but we are rooted in Connectionalism. You have said that over and over again in this podcast. The Cross and Flame logo is known by folks. We have a nursery worker at our church who while I would say doesn't claim to be United Methodist, we had a conversation about her working at a summer camp in a conference, and I said, it's a conference camp.
It's called Glenlake Camp and it's got the Cross and Flame. And she said, oh, yeah, yeah, I know about the United Methodist Church. I know about that because of the cross inflame. So when I see the Cross and Flame, I see home, I know I can go anywhere and find home.
The other reason I love The United Methodist Church is because of what I believe we're getting back to is the sub missional statement I'll call it of this open hearts, open minds, open doors because it's very welcoming. Every church that I've ever experienced in The United Methodist Church has welcomed me and my family and has shown me the love of Jesus Christ, and that has caused great stirring in me to share that with other people because that's what we should be. I mean, when we take communion, the communion table is not The United Methodist church’s, it's God's table, and we give communion to folks who are in need of grace, who want to know the love of God. That open table, this idea that John Wesley says, although we may not think alike, may we love alike and we try to embody that in The United Methodist Church as much as we can, and I like that
Crystal: This is going to air about a week after you graduate. So we're going to kind of go to the future for a minute. So you'll graduate from Iliff and then you will start this path of ordination to become an elder. What does that look like?
Jordan: That's a great question. What does that look like? It may depend on your conference, but for me it means getting through graduation and going to annual conference and continuing to study, continuing to read more of John Wesley's sermons and to really understand the way of salvation and knowing the Wesleyan theology and reading and engaging in conversations with folks because I deeply care about our denomination and I know for a fact that God has called me to ordained life, and so on that path are several interviews along the way. I have my mentor, Mike Bachman, who works for GBHEM, in my mind, is one of the best mentors to have in this process, and he's been helping me discover what it means to be clergy in The United Methodist Church and all while doing that studying and the interviewing and the paper writing to become clergy, I'll be working here at the church that I currently serve is called City Point United Methodist Church in North Richland Hills.
I'll be the ministry coordinator here. We have a missions team, and so we are a missional church, and so I help coordinate and oversee the missions team and our care team to be on the ground level of what caring could look like more than what we think it is right now. Then of course, if you know anything about working at a church, at least the job description at the bottom it says, and other duties assigned. Some of those are teaching leading book and bible studies. I like AV stuff. I'm really into the soundboard and the videos and cameras, and so I've been diving into camera equipment and updating our technology here at City Point and then preaching. So getting my feet wet with preaching and until that becomes a regular thing, getting the opportunity to do that and then of course engaging in our community, whatever form that takes, I do my best to try and get out and meet folks and be engaging. We have a great partnership with the elementary school across the street from us, and I believe with whole heart that that's our key to engaging this community that surrounds our church, and I'm doing everything I can to make that a reality.
Crystal: Well, that's very Wesleyan as well. And you mentioned earlier before the podcast started that you were in a band but not the kind that plays instruments. You're in a Wesleyan band with I guess some fellow students.
Jordan: Yes. So the origin of that, so this band group that I'm in came out of one of the classes. We all took United Methodist doctrine together a year and a half ago, and when the quarter was over, we all looked at each other and said, Hey, this is really helpful. Can we keep doing this? I'm like, yeah, sure. And a year and a half later, we still meet every week.
Crystal: I love that. What do you get out of that?
Jordan: It is a place to grow spiritually. We have some rules. John Wesley was such a fan of some guidelines or rules as we've tried to follow three of them a lot. We set a precedent at the very beginning that if there was anything that we need to be aware of that any areas that we could grow in, please share that. If we're missing something, tell us if we can grow, tell us in a very kind, graceful, constructive way. We also share what's going on in our life. It's a place for us to continue our bond to celebrate when we celebrate to weep, when we weep together. There are things that have happened in this past year and a half that I don't know if I could have gotten through it without my band group, and we are going to continue to meet once I graduate and talking theology.
Crystal: That's exactly the foundation of Methodism. So I love to hear that you are walking those paths that we know are a way to form community, which is what I think. That's what I love about the church is the connection in the community that we have with one another. So that sounds wonderful. Well, as we finish up here today, Jordan, is there anything that we didn't talk about that you wanted to make sure we did talk about?
Jordan: Yeah, just piggybacking off of what we just said, that the band groups, if for our listeners, I want to say, if you can find a group, a band group, a covenant group, a small group, whatever you want to call it, find one and get in one. I say that because for a long time I looked at these pastors or colleagues of mine and I'm wondering, how are you so deeply connected? Where are you getting all this spiritual discipline? While there's a lot of answers to that, one of the big things that I learned was a lot of these pastors have created covenant groups and they still meet for, they've been meeting for 20, 30, 10, 15 years. And I thought, oh my gosh, how do I do that? And this band group was the perfect way for me to do that. And it takes at least some dedication at the beginning, but if you're dedicated, these people can be lifelong partners with you on the journey and has been so eye opening for me as I get older and learn more about the Holy Spirit and about connecting that to the world, that I need places to be grounded, and my band group helps me stay grounded.
And so I just encourage anyone, start today. Don't wait until tomorrow. Find at least two people and meet in whatever way that works for you because we need people in this life to help us get through this life. So that's just want to encourage everybody to do today.
Crystal: That is a great reminder. We do need one another to get through this journey. Well, the last question, Jordan, I'm going to ask you is the one that we ask everyone on “Get Your Spirit in Shape,” and that's how do you keep your own spirit in shape?
Jordan: Yeah, so for the third time, I'm going to mention my band group. They help me keep my spirit in shape, walking and listening to podcasts. And a lot of times doing both of those at the same time help me help keep my spirit in shape. This podcast is excellent for that. Thank you. Yes. And I also, I journal, but I call them virtual journals, and I'm an out loud processor, and so I use the voice memo app on my phone and I record virtual journals about just what people would normally journal about, but I use the Voice Memo app, so that's my millennial version of journaling. And then I do read scripture a lot more nowadays, but scripture reading can be daunting. And so I learned that I need a plan. And so I'm using this calendar plan called Sacred Ordinary Days that gives me scripture to read every day, and I have a pen and my mind ready to think about what I'm reading that day, and I love that. And then lastly, I know that keeping our spirit in shape involves mental and physical wellbeing. So one of the things that helps me with that is reading comics. I love reading comics.
Crystal: Do you have any recommendations as a fan? A comic fan? What's your favorite?
Jordan: Oh, absolutely. So I'm a diehard Teenage Ninja Turtles fan, so I'm going to recommend anybody to go read the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I was also part of the millennial crew that grew up watching Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. So the current run comic book run on Mighty Morphin Power Rangers is excellent and not campy at all because that's what the show is all about. And then another independent one, it's called Radiant Black. It's a fusion of all what Power Rangers is based off called Super Centi. And it's like a love child of all of that. And it's great. And they're doing really cool things like they're including podcasts with it, multimedia, different ways to vote on how storylines can go. It's really cool. And they're out there and I love it. So give me, oh, and Aquaman, if they ever put out another Aquaman title, go read Aquaman. He's not as corny as you think he is. He's actually super dope.
Crystal: Well, thank you for sharing those recommendations. And Jordan, thank you for being a guest on “Get Your Spirit in Shape.” I'm so encouraged by the ministry that's ahead of you and so grateful that you're a part of The United Methodist Church. And thank you for listening to what God had for you and really just stepping out, bravely stepping out on that path. It's a beautiful story and it is a beautiful story that's just starting, so I look forward to seeing what's coming for you.
Jordan: Awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me, Crystal. This has been such a privilege.
Epilogue
That was Jordan Cramer discussing the “holy nudge” he received that set him on a path to discovering his God-given gifts. To learn more, go to UMC.org/podcast and look for this episode where you will find helpful links and a transcript of our conversation. If you have questions or comments, feel free to email me at a special email address just for “Get Your Spirit in Shape” listeners, [email protected]. If you enjoy today's episode, we invite you to leave a review on the podcast platform where you listen. Thank you for taking the time to join us on “Get Your Spirit in Shape.” I’m Crystal Caviness and I look forward to the next time that we're together.
